turbo FTW!!!

[silver-e34]

this is for the m20/m30 guys www.turbochargingdynamics.com (http://www.turbochargingdynamics.com) 400whp on stock internals and stock ecu:eek:

[M52 POWER!]

Ha, that's nothing! Stock internals/ecu on a m52 makes 635whp! (http://www.bmwturbo328.com/) :boink:

[SlickShift]

That's serious power!!!

[E36bmer]

Ha, that's nothing! Stock internals/ecu on a m52 makes 635whp! (http://www.bmwturbo328.com/) :boink:

technically he does not have the stock ecu.

[silver-e34]

:bs: at 635whp thats about 700bhp he would not be running 11sec 1/4 a 300whp e30 runs 11.8 1/4 :jerkit: not only that but to push 635whp from a 10.2:1 compression motor it will run incridebly hot at 20psi of boost alone not to mention you need to run about 40psi/50psi of boost to see those hp figueres im not saying the motor wont hold up but detonation will occur at approximately 20psi of boost unless you retard the timing and as we know you cant do much of that with a stock ecu and even if you had a stand lone kit after 25psi or so it will start detonating again and you can only retard timing so much till you start loosing hp and thats assuming you are running water/alcohol injection to cool it off :nono: :bs:

[M52 POWER!]

http://www.icsperformance.com/UW-635.jpg

The ECU isn't stock but tuned by ICS I believe.

More info here: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=438541&highlight=635

[JuCo]

SCrew ALL THAT CHECK THIS - July European Car

http://www.icsperformance.com/ecp1.gif

[M52 POWER!]

Yea thats cool, we were talking stock internals engines though STUPID!!!!!!

j/k ;)

[silver-e34]

ok after reading all that i definately call :bs: 1st a m30 tuned stand lone system will push near 650whp with stock internals and dont forget its 9.0:1 comp 2nd he claims to push 600whp @1.5bar :eek: an extra 450bhp out of only 22psi boost :bs: to push 700bhp or better you gotta be at least 40psi and why do i see mpower on his valve cover on 1 of his videos? s52 ? and no upclose pics of the turbo set up ? hmmmmmmm :shifty:

[JonnyChimpO]

:dunno:

[JCapelo]

lost....cant keep up with u turbo guys!!

Ill get u someday!

[E36bmer]

First, chris, I was getting at the fact that he is an OBD1 conversion.


:bs: at 635whp thats about 700bhp he would not be running 11sec 1/4 a 300whp e30 runs 11.8 1/4 :jerkit: not only that but to push 635whp from a 10.2:1 compression motor it will run incridebly hot at 20psi of boost alone not to mention you need to run about 40psi/50psi of boost to see those hp figueres im not saying the motor wont hold up but detonation will occur at approximately 20psi of boost unless you retard the timing and as we know you cant do much of that with a stock ecu and even if you had a stand lone kit after 25psi or so it will start detonating again and you can only retard timing so much till you start loosing hp and thats assuming you are running water/alcohol injection to cool it off :nono: :bs:


Ok, well I don't know where to begin on this. So I guess at the start.
Talking 1/4 mile times. So much depends on a time, mainly the launch, also the weight of the car, the E30 may have some slicks on it, gutted out interior, etc. While I know ulyses ran with full interior on street tires. Check out the trap speeds to get a look at how fast the cars really are.(118 for the E30 vs. 135 for the E36). When you are going that fast, that is a huge difference.
Second, Ulyses' car is not 10.2:1 compression. Without telling all of his secrets, it is much lower via mainly a headgasket lowering it to less than 9:1
I dont' know where you get it being hot from running 20psi. So many other things determine the charge temperature other than just comparing psi on completely different cars. If you were running 20psi on 10.2:1 compression, heat would be the last of your worries. psi doesn't mean everything. I have seen cars make over 80whp difference with just a better sized turbo running the same boost.
Not to mention he actually has CO2 running through his fuel, intake, and intercooler, as well as alcy/water injection.
Next, You actually can retartd the timing a good bit on the stock ECU if you know what you are doing. But, considering running C16, having a huge turbo, and cool intake charge, he can afford to run pretty advanced timing. His power is all in little tricks, good tuning, and C16 fuel.
Don't call BS on this one b/c it is all true.

Edit: Oh, and BTW, he is changing his setup with better flowing, well everything,and looking for 700whp on stock internals.

[silver-e34]

tell me how you can retard timing on a stock chip :dunno: i dont doubt the stock internals can hold up that much power at all i have seen it done before but how do you make 450bhp out of 22psi?:dunno: and how do you get 10.2:1 down to 9:1 from just a head gasket that must be a very thick head gasket:eek: maybe i can drop my 8.8:1 to 7.6:1 with out changing pistons :dunno: and yes the heat generated in the cumbustion chamber comes from the amount of compression the more you compress air the hotter it gets so high comp+22psi boost=high temps enough to detonate fuel air mixture with out a spark saying he dropped to 9:1 (with just a headgasket :confused: )we can move that up to maybe 25psi roughly with out doing the math so he would be safe @ 22psi but 450bhp from only 22psi :confused: looking at his timeslip and his mods more like 450/500whp if he is pushing more its not on 9:1 comp but what do i know :dunno:

[Variance]

Gus, I won't claim to know nearly as much as you, since you say you built race engines for however many years. however, I notice a big point that you're missing. "so high comp+22psi boost=high temps enough to detonate fuel air mixture" He said that the guy is running CO2 chilled fuel, CO2 chilled intake, an intercooler (and most likely a large one at that), AND alcohol/water injection. Therefore, the intake charge would hardly be as hot as you're claiming, consider most of those affect the intake charge AFTER the turbo. Also, as for the headgasket, it's becoming more common with FI to use materials that allow for quite thick headgaskets. I can't remember the name of the material off the top of my head, but I've also seen guys implementing them on high-boosting 951's (Porsche 944 Turbo, in case you didn't know), as getting lower compression pistons cost a fortune for that engine.

[TheDarkSide]

"Over my head" :eek:

[E36bmer]

tell me how you can retard timing on a stock chip :dunno: i dont doubt the stock internals can hold up that much power at all i have seen it done before but how do you make 450bhp out of 22psi?:dunno: and how do you get 10.2:1 down to 9:1 from just a head gasket that must be a very thick head gasket:eek: maybe i can drop my 8.8:1 to 7.6:1 with out changing pistons :dunno: and yes the heat generated in the cumbustion chamber comes from the amount of compression the more you compress air the hotter it gets so high comp+22psi boost=high temps enough to detonate fuel air mixture with out a spark saying he dropped to 9:1 (with just a headgasket :confused: )we can move that up to maybe 25psi roughly with out doing the math so he would be safe @ 22psi but 450bhp from only 22psi :confused: looking at his timeslip and his mods more like 450/500whp if he is pushing more its not on 9:1 comp but what do i know :dunno:

To retart timing with the stock ECU on obd2 you have to reverse engineer the ECU and change the MAPs on the ECU, and burn it to the chip. For OBD1 you do the same, and burn it to a new chip. Its the same concept as any N/A chip, just using different maps. What's not to understand? how do you make 450hp out of 22 psi?, just like this. stock is 220whp, at 14.7psia, then add 22psi and your at 36.7psia. and a 150% increase in air. So, you increase fuel by a similar(a little more) and your power is estimated to be the percent increase of fuel/air mixture, so, adding your increase of 150% to stock of 100%, yeilds 2.5 times the power, so 2.5 multiplied by 220 is 550hp. This is a theoretical number, you can actually get more or less depending on tuning. If you are running really high octane, you can have very advanced timing, Then a good mixture, say 12.5:1 and you can get more than this. But, also, he is running 26psi now. (an increase of about 2.8). This calculates about 616 whp. This is within reason of his dyno of 635hp.

The headgasket is .140" thick. that is pretty thick. Stock is something like .02" It's pretty complicated to calculate the compression, so i won't get into that. So just trust me with just that headgasket it lowers the compression ratio on the s/m52 to about 8.9:1

Yes, the more you compress it the hotter it gets, but if you compare 20psi on a t60-1 compared to the same pressure on something like a GT42R, the charge temperature is cooler by about 40% on the GT42R, and flows about 25% more air at the same pressure level. Then, considering the cooling methods he uses, his intake temps really aren't all that high on a dyno run (he will be using that intercooler CO2 spray) So intake temps really are probably around 110F.

I haven't talked out just how he runs so much boost even still on stock bottom end. Even considering the headgasket.
I am slightly at a loss of just how he boosts so much on that compression as well. I can't find the PM, but I asked him a while back and he said that his compression stock was something like 9.8:1 (don't quote me on that), but I remember it being lower than what stock compression was. Either he was incorrect, or he has done something else. Then he has the headgasket. That would lower the compression down even further, more like 8.4:1 or something. I think he may have used shorter, stock rods off of another bmw engine, and isn't telling anyone, or he just gave me the wrong comression ratio.

[silver-e34]

my point exactly that is not a stock motor personally the aftermarket headgasket alone would disqualify it as a stock motor if it was a stock aftermarket ok but not one that will drop your compression ratio and still call it stock.a stock 2.8 10.2:1 motor cannot and will not ever make 700bhp on 22psi that was my point once you drop comp its no longer stock :nono: bottom end there is no doubt it can hold 700bhp and more. and how do u get a stock 328i has 220whp:confused: more like 190bhp. as far as retarding timing on a stock chip no go :nono: you have to burn a new chip and remap the stock curve and is also not considered stock anymore:dunno: even if you overwrite the stock chip its still not the stock curve:nono: i have built many 4cyl and 6cyl turbo motors and yet to see one that has pushed an extra 450bhp from just 22psi regardless of what turbo or trim i used

[silver-e34]

do you realize that to drop compression from 10.2:1 to 9.2:1 on a motor with a 84mm stroke you will need a headgasket aprox. 4mm to 6mm thick ?

[silver-e34]

Gus, I won't claim to know nearly as much as you, since you say you built race engines for however many years. however, I notice a big point that you're missing. "so high comp+22psi boost=high temps enough to detonate fuel air mixture" He said that the guy is running CO2 chilled fuel, CO2 chilled intake, an intercooler (and most likely a large one at that), AND alcohol/water injection. Therefore, the intake charge would hardly be as hot as you're claiming, consider most of those affect the intake charge AFTER the turbo. Also, as for the headgasket, it's becoming more common with FI to use materials that allow for quite thick headgaskets. I can't remember the name of the material off the top of my head, but I've also seen guys implementing them on high-boosting 951's (Porsche 944 Turbo, in case you didn't know), as getting lower compression pistons cost a fortune for that engine.yes i know about race gaskets and all that good stuff and i also read all the mods he has to cool it off but in no way will that do the job with a 10.2:1 comp engine my question is how he dropped the compression so much keeping the motor so called (stock) ?:shifty:

[E36bmer]

Man, you have some pretty exacting standards for being stock. You see, I consider this great for the stock bottom end. I consider a change to be forged aftermarket internals. The headgasket really isn't that big of a deal to me. I also consider it the Stock ECU if it has been reflashed or has a chip. I consider a change to be a piggyback or standalone.
I am so used to having an M3, i kinda forgot he has a 328. Though he does have M3 cams in it, and probably a ported and polished head.



do you realize that to drop compression from 10.2:1 to 9.2:1 on a motor with a 84mm stroke you will need a headgasket aprox. 4mm to 6mm thick ?

I said it was .14" thick. That is 3.6mm. I remember installing that thing. It's pretty thick.

[silver-e34]

i consider a stock motor one that hasnt been altered from its factory specs or hasnt been opened period once you drop compression, port polish,cams,valve springs, its no longer stock anything bolt on such as intake and exhaust or ignition is ok and as for the ecu stock is just that stock curves anything altered is no longer stock :dunno: but i guess everybody has a different way of defining stock

[card counter]

The motor is all stock except a .140 vac head gasket and ARP head studs.Compression is around 8.8 stock compression was 10.2. The head is all stock
no cams ,springs NOTHING. The car has run 10.7 @137mph thats taking it easy off the
start I have already broke 4 axles and 2 diffs.The car was also dyno at 27psi on the 635whp.The ecu is has a custom chip from Karl at AA .As for timing changes they are just a phone call a way and a new chip is made.This car has made great power
more than I thought it would ever see.

[M52 POWER!]

Wow cool to see you joined card counter!

[card counter]

Wow cool to see you joined card counter!

Thanks, :woot:Just thought I would help clear up some of the confussion about my car

[JCapelo]

hey bud welcome to the site!

[card counter]

hey bud welcome to the site!

Thanks

[M52 POWER!]

Card counter did you convert the motor to OBDI?

[card counter]

Card counter did you convert the motor to OBDI?

Yes it is converted to obd1. Im installing a tec3 right now as stock ecu can not
control the new 880cc injectors

[computerkiller]

only thing i dont get is how you run 20+ psi thru your engine with just a head gastet when i talk to alot of people who been turbo chargering for yrs and they said u can only run 8 psi before u start experancing gasket leaks from the pressure also iam not to familar with bmw engines but are the stock interals forged at all because then i can understand a little about puting 20 psi boost to the stock internals if forged but i am geting a custom turbo kit for my car and i had to read up on all the timing and etc i know a thicker gastet can change your compression but i didnt think they made .120 gastets ive seen .80 but mind u i was looking for a 1.6 liter gaskets but iam droping my engine from 9:5:1 to 8:1 so i can run turbo and since iam only doing a gasket i am only going to run 8 psi at the most so i dont risk a gastet leak if i rebuild i then can run 20 psi but if your runing that much psi i would start changing stock internals before u throw a rod or u will get denation and with that much psi i would definly change ignition before u get spark knock but again iam not sure about bmw ecu so you might not have to replace

[E36bmer]

only thing i dont get is how you run 20+ psi thru your engine with just a head gastet when i talk to alot of people who been turbo chargering for yrs and they said u can only run 8 psi before u start experancing gasket leaks from the pressure also iam not to familar with bmw engines but are the stock interals forged at all because then i can understand a little about puting 20 psi boost to the stock internals if forged but i am geting a custom turbo kit for my car and i had to read up on all the timing and etc i know a thicker gastet can change your compression but i didnt think they made .120 gastets ive seen .80 but mind u i was looking for a 1.6 liter gaskets but iam droping my engine from 9:5:1 to 8:1 so i can run turbo and since iam only doing a gasket i am only going to run 8 psi at the most so i dont risk a gastet leak if i rebuild i then can run 20 psi but if your runing that much psi i would start changing stock internals before u throw a rod or u will get denation and with that much psi i would definly change ignition before u get spark knock but again iam not sure about bmw ecu so you might not have to replace


Using sentences would make your comment much easier to read. So I didn't really understand much of what you were saying. I'll answer what I could understand. They acutally make up to a .140" headgasket for the E36 6cyl engine.

[computerkiller]

Using sentences would make your comment much easier to read. So I didn't really understand much of what you were saying. I'll answer what I could understand. They acutally make up to a .140" headgasket for the E36 6cyl engine.


Questions

1. how are u holding the turbo 20 psi pressure on just a head gasket wouldnt the headgasket lose it seal at 20 psi?

2. does bmw engine come with forged pistons and connecting rod on a stock bmw?
if not how are keeping your engine from denation or throwing a rod from all the heat

3. are u useing a ecu that allow retard timing?
if not how are u controling the timing so u dont get spark knock or predenation

reason why i am asking is my car is geting a custom turbo kit on it and iam droping my engine compression from 9:5:1 to 8:1 with a gasket but everyone i talked to said i cant go pass 8 psi boost or i will lose the gasket seal or destroy the stock internals of my enigne and iam doing a stage 3 turbo kit with changing injectors and oil pan tap and fuel mangement

so if your doing 20 psi on stock interals that are not forged and with a headgasket i would like to know how to so i can boost my car up from 105 hp to around 200 hp or 250 hp with my current configuration setup at 8 psi iam expectig a 85 or 70 hp gain but with a 20psi i know i can gain aleast a 100+ easy by the way all this information on my turbo kit is coming from experts who been turboing or motor building for 10+ yrs

but mind you my car is only a 1.6 liter engine and not anywhere near a bmw quality or hp

[M52 POWER!]

Questions

1. how are u holding the turbo 20 psi pressure on just a head gasket wouldnt the headgasket lose it seal at 20 psi?

2. does bmw engine come with forged pistons and connecting rod on a stock bmw?
if not how are keeping your engine from denation or throwing a rod from all the heat

3. are u useing a ecu that allow retard timing?
if not how are u controling the timing so u dont get spark knock or predenation

reason why i am asking is my car is geting a custom turbo kit on it and iam droping my engine compression from 9:5:1 to 8:1 with a gasket but everyone i talked to said i cant go pass 8 psi boost or i will lose the gasket seal or destroy the stock internals of my enigne and iam doing a stage 3 turbo kit with changing injectors and oil pan tap and fuel mangement

so if your doing 20 psi on stock interals that are not forged and with a headgasket i would like to know how to so i can boost my car up from 105 hp to around 200 hp or 250 hp with my current configuration setup at 8 psi iam expectig a 85 or 70 hp gain but with a 20psi i know i can gain aleast a 100+ easy by the way all this information on my turbo kit is coming from experts who been turboing or motor building for 10+ yrs

but mind you my car is only a 1.6 liter engine and not anywhere near a bmw quality or hp

1. Not sure.

2. M3 engines have forged crankshafts and (I believe) conrods n pistons?

3. not sure

There's a guy on bimmerforums with a 328i (m52, all cast internals) with a headgasket and runs 25psi (635whp, 597wtq), that's it for internal mods.

I think the BMW I6 iron blocks may have a better seal, fit, and manufacturing tolerances.

[computerkiller]

well if the internals are forged it would hold 25 psi no problem but runing with out it and no timing control is really stuipd i give him a month till he either get rod knock or piton misfire which mean he will have holes in his piston because it does damge like nitrous does and if your internals are not forged 20 psi of boost is like have a 80 shot of nitrous contuinely but hey it might live a little long i know u can do a 50 shot of nitrious on a stock motor all day long but evenually your timing messes up but the key to nitrous and turbo is igintion timing is your timing with turbo u gotta wait for more air to hit the cyinlider head and also for the cyindler head to come up before it fires if it fires early u will get predenation if a little of u get spark knock

so if u dont get what iam saying go to the site below Explain in full detail what iam trying to say this is from a dude who been tuneing motors for a few yrs

here a good link to read about turbo and nitrous mind u it for a aveo but still good to read about

http://aveoclub.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=turbo&action=display&thread=1141504078
^
this site great for understanding how turbo and nitrous work and how to change compression ratios in easy terms that everyone in here might understand

[E36bmer]

Questions

1. how are u holding the turbo 20 psi pressure on just a head gasket wouldnt the headgasket lose it seal at 20 psi?

The headgasket is a Multi layer steel headgasket and is able to withstand pretty high pressures. Along with ARP head studs the head can be tightened down enough to keep it from lifting. While at mid 20# ranges I would imagine that some cylinder pressure will leak, it will not be detremental to performance. Also, note these boost pressures are most likely on higher octane fuels than you can get at the pump, such as C16.



2. does bmw engine come with forged pistons and connecting rod on a stock bmw?
if not how are keeping your engine from denation or throwing a rod from all the heat

All of those are forged, but on the 328 and 96+ m3 (m52 &s52) the crank is forged. To keep detonation down several things can happen. You can increase your octane. Run some methanol injection. Maybe water/ alchy injection. Also, decrease your intake temps by using nitrous or CO2. Or retarding the timing if nothing else.



3. are u useing a ecu that allow retard timing?
if not how are u controling the timing so u dont get spark knock or predenation

He was using the ECU retuned to do all of this until recently. He is now moving to a TEC3r.

[M52 POWER!]

The 328 I mentioned that's runnign 25psi has successfully done so for several months now.

What e36bmer is talking about is not uncommon in the BMW F/I world. Take a glance at the Forced Induction section on bimmerforums.com, it is not hard to reach such numbers. Max PSI on a stock headgasket I6 is 11~12, with a larger HG you can double that.

[M52 POWER!]

704 RWHP 2.8l I6! (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=572535)

[computerkiller]

maybe i gotta talk to one of u guys about get my car up to 20 psi and runing it ok

[E36bmer]

your car will probably not be able to run 20 psi safely. However, if you were to lower the compression to around 9:1. You could probably run 12 psi safely and see what that does for you, and if it isn't enough. Try to get some methanol injection and you could probably up the boost to 16 or so. With good intercooling and good tuning you could pretty much double your stock hp levels with that.

[computerkiller]

your car will probably not be able to run 20 psi safely. However, if you were to lower the compression to around 9:1. You could probably run 12 psi safely and see what that does for you, and if it isn't enough. Try to get some methanol injection and you could probably up the boost to 16 or so. With good intercooling and good tuning you could pretty much double your stock hp levels with that.

iam droping the compression to 8:1 and runing fuel mangement and have the oil pan tap and etc